Psychedelics, stigma, science and startups

‍Mo Dhaliwal

[00:00:03] Welcome to High Agency, igniting conversations with inspiring people, leading transformative change. Consciousness-altering substances have long been a part of humanity's journey. Terence McKenna, in his 1992 book, Food of the Gods, proposed a controversial theory claiming that our evolution from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens was in fact triggered by the addition of psilocybin mushrooms to our diet around 100,000 years ago. Psychedelics like psilocybin, MDMA, and LSD, once considered fringe drugs, and having spent decades as criminalized substances, have gained increasing attention in the mainstream with clinical studies that show their promise in treating mental health issues such as anxiety, PTSD, or depression. A 2022 survey showed that 17% of people with Homo erectus support the therapeutic use of psychedelics, which reflects a low but quickly growing acceptance to these new therapies. Canada has emerged as a leader in this space, which perhaps isn't surprising that it was one of the first countries to legalize medical cannabis. But as of 2023, the Canadian psychedelics market was valued at around $80 million, with projections reaching $10.7 billion globally by 2027. So this has opened up vast opportunities for the Canadian drug industry, for startups that are looking to innovate within the psychedelic-assisted therapy market with wellness products or pharma development. And a Canadian company is at the forefront of this movement, providing cutting-edge treatments that have the potential to transform mental health and overall well-being. Enter Numinous. Since its inception, Numinus has grown into a leader in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy with a focus on research, clinical services, and advocacy. Founded by Peyton Nykvest, a visionary entrepreneur with a deep commitment to mental health and wellness, Peyton's journey into psychedelics started from his own struggles with chronic pain and mental health challenges. His personal healing experience with psychedelics inspired him to create a company that integrates safe, science-backed psychedelic therapies into mainstream healthcare. And welcome to the show, Peyton.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:02:22] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:02:25] So this is a really interesting story. And one that's really dear to my heart. You know, I first learned about Numinous, I think, six years ago now. And at the time, I had probably read about psychedelics for many, many years. I had had my first experience just a year prior. And we won't start with a confession. We'll get into that maybe a little bit later. But the timing of everything was quite interesting. Because I was just coming off of a creative leadership program, that I'd been a part of, and had the opportunity to microdose with psilocybin and just even learn about this realm just a year prior. And I remember coming back from Amsterdam thinking, like, this is something profound and incredible and beautiful. I don't think I'm done with it yet. And there's something more to be learned and to be done. And within months of that, we met. And I learned about the startup Numinous and what you were trying to do in this world. And I covered some of that in the introduction. But what I love to hear is, actually digging into a bit of your backstory of what your life was prior to being Canada's largest drug dealer, and how you actually decided to start this company.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:03:42] Yeah. So going back, I was someone who was born with chronic pain. And around the age of 12, I had two parents who suffered with substance abuse. And my mom got sober when I was 12. And when she came home, she had, I would say, she'd sort of become the, or seen the version of herself that I always hoped she could see for herself. And that was through, you know, this kind of deep excavative sort of mental health process. And she came home, and, you know, the first, one of the first things she said was, you know, you might want to start talking to somebody. And I took that very seriously because of my chronic pain. And so about at the age of 12, started really diving deeply into mental health and, and this sort of intersection of mental health, physical health. And that kind of led me on a sort of like healing crusade, I would say, of everything from going to the Mayo Clinic to working with mindfulness practitioners, and meditation, yoga, all of that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:05:00] You're doing this as a, as a teenager? Yeah. Wow. Okay.

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Payton Nyquvest

[ 00:05:03 ] And, you know, I think what was interesting in that process also was, I was always, I was never shy to like kind of share what I was going through. And so as a teenager, you know, I'd be hanging out with my friends, and I grew up on the North Shore and playing hockey and all the things that, that people in Vancouver do. And I'd, you know, get up and I'd say, sorry, guys, I got to go to my therapist, right? That was kind of twofold. One, you know, I saw friends who could maybe benefit from some of the stuff that I was doing. But, you know, probably more truthfully is: I just didn't want to be the only kid in therapy. So I was hoping that other people were going to join me. Just inviting in others. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And, and it was profound for my mental well-being, how I was feeling. But my chronic pain kept getting worse and got to a point, about seven or eight years ago, where I was getting hospitalized probably three days a week, and was really kind of out of options. And I'd never had a psychedelic experience as, as someone who grew up in a family that struggled with substance abuse.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:06:14] I was always sort of like, Capital D drugs, you want to stay away from that, stay away from addiction.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:06:19] Right, right. And I'd know, professionally, I'd gone into the finance industry. And so I was even maybe more unique in that, you know, I was, you know, I was, you know, I was, you know, I was; that's an industry that, that kind of centers around having a good time and, and using different substances in order to do so. Putting it very lightly. We've all seen Wolf of Wall Street. That's right. That's putting it pretty lightly. That's right. And, but I was at this point of, of really, you know, it's, it's interesting with chronic pain in the way that it was showing up for me, which was, you know, within 30 minutes going from feeling fine to, right. To the emergency room, rushing to the emergency room. And you, when you're born with something like that, you know, I had this sort of like existential inquiry of like, am I really supposed to be here or not? You know, like, especially in that, with the way that the health care system works is that gets reaffirmed when you go to see a specialist and you think you get close to it, then you find out that that's not the thing. And, And, so I was in this place of like, is is my body trying to tell me something that I'm not listening to? Right. And I'm kind of a down the rabbit hole kind of person. And so I'd researched psychedelics for probably a year and a half. And finally, I was I was in the emergency room at Lionsgate Hospital. And I said to my wife, I said, look, you got to trust me, but I need to do something pretty different here. And my the way my sort of chronic pain presented what was gut pain that within 30 minutes would just manifest into the just the overwhelming experience of pain. And and so I said, you know, I'm going to go and do ayahuasca. And my wife, my wife in the hospital said, so let me get this straight. You're you're planning. And to heal your chronic pain is to go drink a brew in the jungle by yourself with a small group of people. And I said, 'Yeah', she said, 'OK'. And so I got out of the hospital, packed my bags and got on a flight and went down to South America and went and did a week. We did four ceremonies and not to paint the picture of a panacea, but four ceremonies with ayahuasca. And I came back and I never had any chronic pain symptoms ever again. And that was really for me, I think the thing that I was really sitting with through that whole process was. All of the work that I had done really helped me actually prepare for that experience. And so what it felt like was I had built this this fire that. You know, that experience was sort of just like putting gas on the fire; and the there was a moment in the experience that was really for me. What I felt like was the big catalyst was not that I extracted that chronic pain, but it brought me to this experience of: can you actually just accept your life for what it is and like, real, rat? You know, you. You. You probably understand this a little bit, but like, real radical acceptance, not like, well, if I accept it, then maybe something will happen; but like hands and knees, radical acceptance of what if this is just your life, right? And in that moment, that was really for me, the catalyst was coming back to that acceptance. And again, as someone when you're born with it, there's this inherent belief that something's wrong with you, that you're broken, that you need fixing. And you're fighting it all the time. Right, right, right. And so that gave me, you know, that first real big kind of moment of of accepting myself and my and my experience to date as that. Right. And so that that was really for me. The big sort of profound shift for myself and coming back, though, what I didn't anticipate that was actually far more challenging. Was I had always and not just myself, but everybody who was around me had identified me as like Peyton with chronic pain, right, even from like a time standpoint, I came home and I was like, what am I going to, you know, I always kind of allocated that I was going to be in the hospital at some point during the week. I was like, what do I do with all this free time? You know, do I get more haircuts? Like, what do I do with all this free time now? And it was really disorienting for me. And and it was. In hindsight, you know, one of the things that I didn't probably pay enough attention to was, you know, my relationships with the people who I was really close to, like my wife and my family, you know, I came through that experience and I was like on this rocket ship and we'd met, you know, not too too long after that. And I was like, I'm going to how do I give back and what do I do? And meanwhile, I had this support system of people. Who for 30 some odd years had gone through this process with me.

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MO DHALIWAL

[00:11:53] And they knew you as a particular person. Right. And that they could manage.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:11:56] Right. Right. And so I come back a week later and I'm like, I'm good. And I'm now going to go and do all these things. And it took time for those relationships to adjust to that new reality because they weren't necessarily having the same felt experience as me. And that was quite that. I found. That very challenging for the first while, because I'm finally feeling this alleviation and all this kind of stuff and all these people are like, look, we we want to trust that. But we've also been the person who have sat beside you in the hospital bed for, you know, years and years of your life. And and so with numinous and and sort of where that got birthed from was I came out of that experience. And when I came home, I was really just like. I wanted to give back to something that had saved my life. Like I felt this some kind of reciprocity need and and it wasn't to quit my job and start to start a company and do everything that we've done.

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MO DHALIWAL

[00:13:01] But you quit your job and I quit my job and started a company.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:13:04] And and for me, what was interesting, you know, going back seven years or so ago, you know, there was no industry. There was no companies, you know, really what was happening was a lot of not for profit and academic research. And that was kind of about it. And early in my journey, I was fortunate enough to meet some some very incredible people. One person in particular, Rick Doblin, who has been the founder of MAPS, who MAPS is really the reason why kind of psychedelics in the West are where they're at. They've been doing research in the space not for profit for about thirty-seven years. And when I spoke with him, with Rick, you know, I said, you know, how can I, how can I get back and like any good nonprofit person, he says, well, you could write me a check. But the second thing he said was, you know, nobody's really focusing on the infrastructure side of this. And that resonated really deeply with me because what was very clear was, yes, I'd had access to this experience. But I built so much internally. I built so much internal scaffolding and internal and external support to be able to hold that experience. And so, while there's so much attention being paid to the experience itself, it was really all that was built around that that made that very impactful for me. And so, in starting Numinous, it was how can we help build that infrastructure so that when these different modalities become approved? They can be held in a way that can actually help support somebody through that process. And so, that was was and still to this day has has been sort of the intention of of the company.

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MO DHALIWAL

[00:14:55] And I don't think you can understate what a bit of a leap it was, you know, because culturally, yes, in Canada and some other jurisdictions around the world, we've sort of gotten over the cannabis thing. Yeah. Right. And so some of the. The taboo around capital D drugs had kind of, you know, shifted at that point. Yeah. And so when the psychedelics conversation started, for one, I was surprised by the number of people that were actually open to it. Right. And then the number of people that actually admitted to having, you know, and it felt like a bit of a confession. Yeah. Where people felt some safety now that, OK, we're trying to have these conversations and now I'm not going to lose my job and I'm not going to be vilified in society or shunned in some way or ostracized. Yeah. So I can now. Actually, share the fact that I had this profound experience. Right. And even after that sort of initial micro-dosing and then, you know, much larger sort of LSD full-on journeys after that, that initial experience I had, it's interesting because this is an incredibly profound experience. It's got incredible health and well-being potential. But there is still, you know, a pretty large cultural shift that needs to take place for it to actually not only be accepted fully as a part of our lives, as part of our economy, but also to be kind of launched in the right way. Right. I mean, as much as I was joking about you being a drug dealer, I mean, there's the there's the OG drug dealers in the room, right, which is big pharma. Mm hmm. And there's a very different appreciation. Mm hmm. For, you know, chemicals and synthetic products and et cetera in that industry because it's treated a very specific way. Right. And you would look at that industry and say, like, why would they actually care about psychedelics? Because it's kind of a bad business model. Yeah. Right. Because unlike opiates, right, or unlike other things that actually are addictive, like psychedelics don't, you know, like it doesn't initiate that same drive. Like you don't suddenly want to come back for more because you need another hit. Right. Yeah. You're feeling for. For LSD. Right. Right. And so on the one hand, you know, you don't see this actually getting normalized without their participation. Mm hmm. But the culture seems so far away from this thing that is actually meant to be a profound and healing experience for people. And it necessitates this incredible social and mental health sort of foundation that you'd actually spent your life building up to that point. Mm hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And so the conversation winds up being so much about the drug, the substance. Yeah. And we're not necessarily, I feel, you know, culturally anyways, paying attention to how much foundation we need before that and then what your life, community, society is supposed to feel like beyond that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So how are you guys addressing this at Numinous? I mean, it's a big question I asked. Yeah. Yeah. But how are you guys addressing this? Because I don't see how we can actually mainstream a lot of this without, you know, getting these players to participate. Yeah.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:18:12] Well, and so one of the things, going back to your first comment around, you know, the sort of confession aspect of this, one of the things that was very shocking to me was when I came back from those first experiences, you know, I was, people knew who I was, people knew a bit of what I was going through. And when I came back, you know, I wasn't screaming from the hilltops about what I'd gone and done, but I also wasn't hiding it. And people started to become aware of that. And, you know, I was working in a different industry and I started having, on a daily basis, either someone calling me or showing up at my office saying, 'Hey, I have to come talk to you about something.' And I became like the confession booth for all these people who are saying, 'I had you know this profound experience and I've never been able to talk to anybody about it.' And there was one conversation in particular that really struck deeply with me, which was: There was a woman who I'd known since I was a kid, and she was probably 70 at the time. And she said, 'You know, I really want to come to your office and come talk to you.' And I said, 'Sure.' And she came and talked to me, and she said, 'I had an experience... I was in Peru. I was in my mid-20s, and I had this experience. She didn't even know what the drug was. And she said, 'I actually didn't even know it was ayahuasca until I heard about your story.' But she said, she said, that experience that I had was the most profound experience that I'd ever had in my whole life. And it and it shaped the entire rest of my life. And this is the first time that I've ever been able to talk to somebody about it. And and I think it was not even the stigma of the drug, but. It was such a profound experience. For her, you don't know where to start, that she doesn't know where and it's hard to talk to somebody about that who hasn't had a, you know, a similar experience. And it's and it's funny kind of since that, as I've talked with people, there's this conversation that happens where, you know, there's like three words, you know, you're trying to how do you how do you describe sort of the ineffable. Right. But there'll be these sort of like core threads that someone will bring up and you can see there's like. A moment where there's just this like head nodding that happens and it's like, OK, we don't have to explain anymore. We know what we're talking about. Right.

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MO DHALIWAL

[00:20:46] And I think we have that here. Yeah, for sure. You guys came in and it was our very first meeting. Yeah. And it was me, you, and Stacey. And we kind of went around the table doing introductions. But what was inherent to that was us talking about our experiences. Yeah. So there was like that head nod of like, OK, you get it. There's a whole other story we don't need to tell. Yeah. It's like maybe, you know, it's like a vacation destination. Right. I'm like. If you've been to the same beach in Jamaica, it's like, OK, you know. You know. Yeah.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:21:13] Yeah. And so, you know, that for me in the very beginning was really eye opening. And then, you know, to your other comment, you know, you're exactly right around the container, you know, for these kinds of experiences. And, you know, it's interesting. We're just kind of catching up briefly before this. And we've we've I think last year we we treated about one hundred and some odd thousand people. But nobody comes to our centers asking for psychedelic therapy. And I think that's one of the big sorts of misconceptions in the space is that, yes, there's all this awareness around psychedelic therapy and it's become sort of a cultural movement over the last little bit. But most people who come to us or all people who come to us, they're people with depression or anxiety and they're coming saying, you know, I need help with this. Right. And I think that's going to be the norm, frankly, for a lot of people who are looking for, you know, a more sort of like clinical insurance reimbursed kind of experience. Right. And so, you know, for us, as much as, yes, we we provide psychedelic therapy by means that are available to us right now, a lot of our work is is just meant to be. Mental health work. And, you know, what's what's been sort of an interesting narrative, particularly in sort of the investment thesis is, well, you know, not having repeat customers is not a good business. Right. Which is, I think, the most bizarre conversation to to to have with people. But one of the things that we started to see really early was that people. People. After these experiences, their commitment to their mental health process and their mental health well-being actually goes up quite dramatically, and they keep coming to therapy and they keep engaging with the clinic on an ongoing basis because they've recognized that, oh, I've I've really kind of now made some advancement and I want to stay with it. You know, it's; and I always akin it to, you know, these experiences are sort of like interventions. Right. And so say I'm someone who needs knee surgery. Right. I can approach that one of two ways. I can either say, 'OK, I need knee surgery and so I'm going to go downhill skiing and not take care of my body and, you know, then I'm going to go in for surgery and then after I'm going to sit on the couch and eat McDonald's and chances of my knee surgery going successfully are probably fairly low. Or I can do all the prehab stuff, get my body healthy, take care of myself. Go in for the intervention and then I can take rehab really seriously and the chances of that being successful go up quite a lot. And that, I think, is really important when we think about these experiences. Yes, there's the opportunity for, you know, great alleviation of mental health challenges, but it's really only as good as, you know, the support that you give to yourself on or either side of that. And so I think. You know, that's that's something that's challenging for our healthcare system to sort of wrap its head around, you know. The way we've treated mental health challenges to date is we put you on a prescription and, you know, that's what you do for the rest of your life. And I think this is also bringing us back to one of the big mindset shifts around mental health that, you know, we've we've tried to. And I think this is also bringing us back to one of the big mindset shifts around mental health that, you know, we've we've tried to. To be a stand for, you see so many people who get a diagnosis of depression or what have you, and they start to really identify with it. Right. It becomes a part of their 'why I'm a depressed person.' And, you know, you're not born depressed. You know, certainly you can be you can be born with certain orientations, but there's events and things that have happened in your life that have made that become more acute. Right. And so I think that's that's a bit a part of this sort of cultural shift in just how we think about mental health care in general. Mm hmm.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:25:49] Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:25:49] And what is it like, leading a corporation with the stated focus of leveraging psychedelics and these alternative therapies and leading the. Clinical research there because you've got a very, I think, interesting place from where, like, the genesis of the idea was and your intention with it, but then kind of trying to connect that to the fact that you guys went public and you're managing, you know, a publicly traded corporation and you're you're making moves in the United States. You know, what sort of what sort of people are attracted to a company like this? And are there any like unique challenges that come from leading a psychedelics corporation?

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:26:39] Yeah. It's been an interesting challenge for sure. I think. You know, even if you extract out just psychedelics, but you think about health care, as you mentioned, we're a public company. The environments that we exist in can be dramatically quite different. And how you sort of. Culturally stay aligned to your mission and why you're here has, I think, in many, in many ways, been our greatest advantage and at times been our greatest challenge, right? You know, you think about you mentioned pharmaceutical companies and stuff like that in health care where we want people to get better, right? Yeah. Um. And then you bring in environments like public markets who, you know, I think people who have supported us genuinely want to support the mission. Um, but as an investor, we want to support the mission and we want to see quarter over quarter growth, right? Um, and a lot of the times in someone's healing journey, those are not two of the same arcs that people go on. And so. I think for us, you know, especially as an at the very beginning stages of this, and I think where the sort of psychedelic industry, if that's what you want to call it, has gone to is in the beginning, it was really everybody trying to be all things to all people and doing all things. And I think over the last number of years, that's I would say the lines have gotten more clear in regards to like where everybody wants to participate. Right. If you're a pharmaceutical drug company focused on getting a drug approved through the FDA, that's a very different thing than a service provider who's seeing clients on a daily basis. And so I think that's that for us over the last number of years has been helpful. Um, but, you know, with that, I think. You know, my my sort of referential point has always been my own personal experience. Right. And, um, and I'm grateful for that, but we've really tried to navigate one. How do we culturally do this in a good way? Um, how do we appreciate that our practitioners work within the health care system and the sort of opportunities and limitations of that? And we have investors and stakeholders and all that stuff, too. So, um, yeah, I go back to. Never losing sight. Of why, you know, we were here in the process. And, you know, it's interesting, even even from the the public market side of things, um, we've we've had as many as 50,000 shareholders and the amount of, like, inbound emails we get from people who would say it would always start with, like, hey, I just invested whatever amount of money into your company. But then as we were just talking about, then there would be this, like, very long. Confession of why this is why. Right. And and that's incredible. And I think, though, with that, the challenge is that all feels really good when everything's tracking in the same direction. But when it starts to go in the other direction, then it's almost like this existential crisis of, you know, does none of this mean anything because now I'm losing money or, you know, what have you. And that's that's just been. Over the last while, again, a very interesting thing to navigate, especially in new industry where things go through these cycles of big, big attention, big boom, you know, consolidation. And, you know, you mentioned cannabis, which I think has probably been the most interesting example of that over the last little bit.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:30:54] Yeah, well, I think cannabis has been a great example. And you would hope that in an area that is, I mean, frankly, far more profound than what cannabis can do for you. Yeah, you would hope that psychedelics leapfrogs a lot of those things. But we saw some similarities, right? Like one thing I remember thinking about with cannabis and we had some clients in that space at Skyrocket was that on the odd occasion you would encounter a client that you could, you know, it's kind of like when your your eyes are bigger than your stomach. Yep. And from the vision, from the plan, it was like, OK, we're going to buy the farmland. Then we're going to set up a processing facility. Then we're going to set up distribution. And then we're going to have our own retail locations. And they have this massive vision and the investment to back it, frankly. Yeah. But you look at it and it's like farming's hard. Yep. Right. Processing's hard. Distribution's hard. Retail's hard. But you wanted to go into every one of these realms and just assume that you would just be expert and just kill it everywhere. Right. Yeah. So what you were saying about really focusing in on what your what your purpose is and what your mission is. I mean, that's critical. But I think especially when it's something new and there's public markets involved, there is a tendency to really blow up the story and turn into something that might not be as focused. Yeah.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:32:15] Yeah. I mean, we struggled a ton with that in the beginning and nothing will bring in confusion and complexity like money. And, you know, it's when I started the company, the intention was actually never to take it public. Yeah. And I had previous, you know, professional experience in public markets and I left, you know, kind of disenfranchised and ready to not be involved in that anymore. And, you know, it's it was almost a little bit of careful what you wish for in regards to, you know, hoping for attention and stuff like that, because what follows that, particularly in Vancouver, is there's, you know, a market trending in a particular direction and a bunch of interest that comes in. And the pressure was was, frankly, looking at the size of the challenge, you know, being mental health care and the need for resources to go and support that sort of in many ways sort of pushed us in that direction. And, you know, we're very fortunate we got to raise, you know, I think we raised about 80 million or so over a couple of years. But that can add a lot to your point, maybe over assumption in your own capabilities because people are throwing money at you. And then it's like, well, you know, I must be great at all things because, you know, look how much money people are willing to give me. And, and, I think the space in general has gone gone through an important sort of education process around that. And, and, I think you've seen. As I as I mentioned, a lot more focus on, you know, what are what are the things that we need to prioritize right now to make sure that there's longevity and real change?

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:34:14] So what are the lessons that you've learned along the way? Because I think the other thing that's I'm sure there's a lot. But I think the thing that's interesting about your story is how mission-driven you were from from day one. Because even when we first met and we connected through Skyrocket to help you guys get started, get the initial brand launched. It wasn't that you identified with being a startup founder. Yeah. Right. Or you didn't identify with being an entrepreneur. And in technology spaces where we work a lot, you get some of that identification sometimes. Right. Where people know that they're an entrepreneur and they know that they're a startup founder first. Yeah. And then it's like, OK, what do I want to do? I'm going to go figure out how to make a company. Yeah. And I think what was, you know, really authentic to your story was that you were. You were mission-driven from day one. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Numinous was your first startup, your first company. OK. So you came out of finance and then you had a mission. Yeah. But as a result of that mission, you had to be now a startup founder and go through everything that comes with being an entrepreneur. Yeah. So what were your let's say some of your biggest lessons come? I'm sure there were many and I'm sure they're still coming. What were some of your biggest lessons?

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:35:25] Yeah, I think. I think in many ways, naivety is sort of a superpower. Oh, the bumblebee. That's right. And and it was it was funny early on when I started Numinous. I had an advisor who is someone who'd been in healthcare for a very, very long time. And and he said to me, he said, do you know why this is probably going to work? And I said, no, please tell me. And he says, it's because you have no previous experience in healthcare. And, and I said, I laughed, and he said, 'You know, because you're you're able to see outside of of it's cliche, but kind of see outside of the box. Right. Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:36:09] It's what we call the curse of knowledge sometimes. Right. Right. You've got all of this knowledge, all these expectations kind of bogging you down.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:36:15] Right. Right. Well, and if you think about health care in general, like the process of being a health care practitioner, you go to school and then the walls begin to condition into it. Right. Right. And, and so I think, you know, learning in that was again, I go back to like. A lot of times in life, you're trying to figure out what your goal is and what your goals are. And once you figure that out, you're not forgetting why you're showing up and and the sort of creativity comes from from that naivety. But I think, you know, some of the biggest learnings for me over the last while, you know, we definitely went through periods of maybe. It was always very clear to me where we were trying to go towards. Getting to, um, really make sure you're prioritizing things properly. Um, definitely I would say it was, was one of the biggest kind of learnings for me and continues to be to this day. And, and I think ultimately for us not forgetting who you're, who you're serving at the end of the day. Um, and that, you know, again, fortunately from my own personal experience, like that was always fairly clear for me. Um, but as things get more complex and you start to have many different stakeholders, you know, I, I think you can lose sight really quickly of, you know, who are you ultimately in service to, um, and, and to make sure that you don't lose line of sight of that is, is I think really, really important.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:37:57] Um, my assumption is yes, but I'm going to ask the question anyways.  Um, do you think you attract some very culturally aligned people because, you know, again, being a psychedelics corporation, it's a very specific mission of, of healing and it's profound what you're trying to do.  So my assumption would be that you're going to attract some really culturally aligned people, right?  Because the story you told of even the retail investors that would buy some shares, but then write you the long email about why.  They did that.  Like you're, you're attracting some very culturally aligned people.  So what was it like building a team around yourself?  And did you just find that you had this sort of cheat code with psychedelics and as a result, everybody was culturally aligned or how did that go?

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:38:38] You know, we, we were very, very fortunate, um, in that, you know, we did, we did get a lot of very culturally aligned people, um, which, you know, there's, there's, there's kind of two sides to that, right? Is, you, you get very culturally aligned, very passionate people. Um, but with that, they come with their own view of things or their own lens of how things should maybe go. And so from an organizational standpoint, how do you, um, how do you bring in and, and, and support that passion in a sort of collectively aligned mission? Because you're going to go through, you're going to go through periods of, you know, some people will not be happy about a particular direction or, or thing that you're focusing on at a period of time. Um, and be able to bring that back to, you know, yes, I understand where maybe the challenge with that is right now, but in the broader context, this is where we're collectively moving towards. And so, um, that, that has been an interesting process to navigate. Um, and, and how do you foster, you know, how do you foster that over a long period of time as you go through kind of ebbs and flows of, you know, even as we've seen over the last little while, you know, great acceptance, great adoption. Then you've seen the FDA deny things you you've hit, you know, different bumps and things along the way. Um, and not have people get too deterred by that. Um, you know, particularly because this feels new for a lot of people, but really we're, we're doing something that's actually very, very old, right? These, these practices have existed for tens of thousands of years in different forms and different kinds of cultures. Um, and, you know, even talking about Maps who, you know, is a 37 year old startup, who's been doing this a long time. Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of people who have been at this for, for a long time. And so how do you harness that? Knowledge? And also, you know, when you turn outward, this is still very, very new for a lot of people and particularly in the systems that you're looking to, you know, disrupt.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:41:07] Yeah. So for the most part, you could assume that, uh, your leadership team, the people you're attracting, the easier conversation was probably why they're there. Yeah. Right. Yep. But then what you're doing and how you're doing it, there's still lots of room for, um, tension, learning, figuring that out. And I'm sure that was probably exacerbated by the fact that there's no real, like, as much as it's, you know, naivety is an advantage. Um, at the same time, there's no real models for you guys to look at. Yeah. Cause it's not like you're like, well, you know, we have competitors and what are we going to do? Cause it's, you're, you're kind of pioneering and breaking new ground for the first time. So what's it been like as the operation has sort of grown out of Canada? And I know you guys made some acquisitions in the States. Yeah. What's the activity like there? Because, uh, I'm not, you know, entirely up to speed with what's happening with the FDA, but I know years ago, MDMA was given breakthrough status because it was treating like 90% plus of, uh, uh, veterans that had seen combat and were dealing with PTSD and depression and all sorts of issues. And it had like a 90% plus success rate. So they got breakthrough status, but what's happened since then?

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:42:16] Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. So in the U. S which we're the bulk of our operations are now actually down in the U. S. and you, you mentioned MDMA. And I think the fascinating thing with MDMA is that MDMA was actually originally synthesized as a therapeutic drug. There were over 150,000 MDMA-assisted therapy sessions that happened in the U. S. before it made its way actually into it. It was a, they've localized it to adapt one Dallas night club that sort of then turned it into ecstasy and really into a party drug. Right. Um, and then, you know, the war on drugs happened and the sort of sweeping psychedelic act in the sixties. Um, and previous to that though, there'd been thousands of clinical trials that had been done. I mean, Saskatchewan was sort of the hotbed for psychedelic research. They'd done a ton of research on LSD and all this kind of stuff. And all of that got, you know, swept away. And, um, and so in the U. S., you know, as you mentioned maps and MDMA, um, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, they posted two successful phase three clinical trials treating, um, treatment-resistant PTSD. So these are people who have had to have tried at least three other forms of therapy, um, and had not been successful. And the, the last phase three, they had 80% of the participants saw a significant clinical reduction in their symptoms. Uh, 67% actually no longer met the PTSD criteria. So essentially cured their PTSD, um, which is incredible. We don't have anything even remotely close to that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:43:53] Um, and, and, and that's why I was, uh, earlier when I was mentioning that it's kind of a bad business model, right? Cause you want them to have enough PTSD that they keep buying your thing all the time.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:44:03] Well, and, and so that's, what's led us to sort of an interesting point even right now is they got breakthrough therapy status, which, you know, breakthrough therapy status is essentially the FDA acknowledging significant clinical benefit. Um, and the, the breakthrough designation actually helps them fast track through the FDA process, right? So six or seven months ago, it was sort of like a foregone conclusion that this was going to get approved and, and the sort of approval process was just going to be a formality this summer. Uh, what they do is, is the FDA holds what's called an, an ad comp meeting, um, which is essentially a separate meeting of advisors who are not connected to the approval process, give their sort of review. Okay. And, and the ad comp meeting, uh, they voted down MDMA-assisted therapy. I think it was nine to 11, um, or, or nine to two. So as a group of 11, nine said no. Um, and you know, not to, not to put on a tinfoil hat, but if you look at the people who are on that ad comp meeting, most of them are pharmaceutical drug executives. Um, and so they'd shot down, uh, the submission. They then went to the FDA process and the FDA has denied their application. And so they’re now in a phase of figuring out what they need to do to potentially go to approval. Um, and that has, has definitely been a sobering moment for the space. And, um, and I think, you know, we're at this point of, unfortunately, you know, as you continue to see across the board, it doesn’t matter which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, mental health indication you look at rates are going up dramatically. Um, and, and obviously particularly since COVID, but, you know, we're at this point of, you know, we’re at a breaking point in regards to mental health care. Um, and then to, to see that kind of denial is, is been really hard and sobering for a lot of people. Um, you know, I had therapists who you've, you've got thousands of people who have been trained and, and sort of oriented, their whole life around this approval happening and now in sort of existential crisis of where do we go from here? Um, and so, you know, I think back to what I was mentioning before, you know, the, the big sort of criticism of, you know, what the submission that, that maps and, and a company called Lycos who's, who's been the spin out of maps. Um, there was a lot of sort of judgment around the therapeutic process and things like that, because the FDA doesn't actually, they don't actually regulate therapy.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:46:52] And it's just the substance.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:46:53] Well, and that's, and I think that's, what's been hard to digest is, you know, we're used to like drug taking, um, this idea of drug plus therapy is, is tricky to navigate. Um, and so where the lines have now gotten very, very clear. And, you know, one of the things that I, I said to Rick and, and the team at maps over the last couple of years is, you know, you have to sort of remember all the things that you've done, but also what game you're playing, right? If you're playing the FDA drug approval game, then, you know, as much as we might not necessarily agree with how that process goes, you are in that process. Right. And so I think that's where, where we're seeing the sort of drug approval space at, at the moment is, you know, what does the FDA want to see? And most of that is like drug safety and all that kind of stuff. Um, the, you know, baffling thing you mentioned opiates. Um, I just, I saw a recent stat that said that, uh, I think one third of drugs that get approved by the FDA end up actually getting pulled off of the shelf because they cause harm. That's a staggering number. Um, meanwhile, you know, we've now got lots of safety data and there's, there's actually no lethal dose for psilocybin. There's no, lethal dose for LSD. Um, you know, certainly could lead to a challenging experience if you take more than, than adequately prescribed. Um, but meanwhile, you know, we have a ton of drugs in the marketplace that, you know, cause harm or even death, right? Even Advil. I mean, the amount of overdose deaths from Advil and Tylenol in, in North America is, is astounding. Um, and so, that's, that's kind of the landscape at the moment. Um, and in the meantime, you know, you're seeing a lot of interesting things happen. You've seen Oregon legalize psilocybin. You've seen Colorado legalize psilocybin. So there's sort of different, different modes of access that have started to happen. Um, which, you know, people always ask me, are you more for the medicalization or are you more for decriminalization? And my response is always just, yes. Um, cause I think, I think different forms of access are important. Um, yeah, of course. I mean, I don't think, if we, if we, you know, Prof. I'm best known for the, the paths of deserves to exist in relevant forms really and and those sorts of things. It's, it's non, it's true and rare, but, and it's certainly not not the case for, you know, in North America. Um, you know, there's also, in, in the middle of a universe called it spleen exposure, like, it makes people-, you know, a little bit of false news. Uh-huh. Yes. Um, so uh, So, you know, that goes back to, you know, which lane you're sort of playing in.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:49:44] Yeah. So what are you excited about next? Like there's, you know, a lot of regulation and industry changes that are outside your control. And I think as far as managing a company and leading a company and doing the best with what's in your control. Yeah. I think Numinous has done some incredible work. And, you know, we were happy and honored to be a part of that journey. But where's this going now?

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:50:12] You know, I think there's a couple of things that I get that I feel very passionate about. One, you know, as I mentioned, the mission of trying to support this sort of mental health epidemic that I would say we're in at the moment is one that's very near and dear to me. But I think the other thing that I've been really excited about that I've continued to see is that these experiences have also led people to wanting to live life in a, I would say, a very kind of dedicated and reverent kind of way. And I think you're seeing now, you know, it's interesting in Vancouver. Right. We've got dispensaries that sell, you know, mushrooms and five MEO DMT vape pens. And, you know, it's like access to the drug has become all too easy. But I think you've also seen a lot of people who have gone and sort of had an experience and have said, you know, that the experiences is one kind of small aspect of, you know, what what I what it really takes to kind of walk with those experiences.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:51:31] To truly realize the full potential of it.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:51:34] Exactly. And and I think that, you know, is is something that I think is only going to become. More important over the next little while, because, you know, these experiences and people ask me, you know, should I do something and I always say careful what you wish for, because you can't put that lid necessarily or back on the box, you know, once you once you once you've done that, you can't unsee it or unfeel it. And and so, you know, I think as as culture starts to support. You know, and talk about more of these things to also have those people that are really incorporating that in their lives in a way that is, you know, showing benefit, not just to themselves, but to their communities is really important. Right. And, yes, within the sort of psychedelic movement or what have you, but also just in day-to-day life. It's actually a really good question. Great talk, Robert Kennedy Junior got asked a question around psychedelics, and he's someone who's who's been in an abstinent-based program for, I think, 40 years or something like that. But his son went and and had an ayahuasca journey down in South America, and he was talking about it and he was talking about, you know, the experience that his son had and it was this big cosmic kind of experience. But the thing that he said was. I knew that he'd made a profound change because he started taking out the garbage and washing dishes, and and I think that's really kind of what this is actually all about: how is this actually supporting you on a day-to-day level? And so it's not this like chasing of the experience, but actually how you're taking the experience and then applying it to your daily existence. day-to-day life that is really what makes a profound change and you know even in my own story people ask me and you know that they love the idea of the ayahuasca ceremony or whatever and it's romantic, right, um, but when they ask me like if someone would come to me and say like, 'what would you say made the profound change

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:54:01] ', it's all the kind of non-sexy day-to-day stuff that I did before that I continue to do today that really makes my life, you know what it is, today, and and I think that's not necessarily what people want to hear a lot of the time um, but I think more and more people are recognizing the sort of truth of that for themselves, yeah, i mean look if I could have you know continual and more and compounding psychedelic experiences that led me to a place where I could file my taxes on time right, i mean it's a profound change that's right, um, so a lot's happened in the last five or six years you've learned a lot if you had to go back is there any specific Situation or any specific decision that you look at, I would have done this differently.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:54:56] You know, I think taking the company public, I would say was was definitely and not that I would necessarily do anything different, you know. At the time it was a new industry that needed capital in order to build and grow. Um, but from an environment standpoint, um, you know, there's many tenants of the public markets that you know is not necessarily a conducive to the public market. Um, I think it's a very inclusive environment to you know, the the the journey that our clients are on necessarily yeah, it's a very different culture. Right, right, and so you know I think that decision and thinking about where we are today, um, is is one that I reflect on a lot, um, so you might have still taken the company public but the maybe the impact of the cultural implications doing that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:56:05] Maybe at the time things were moving quickly, you didn't stop and apprehend fully.

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:56:11] Yeah, exactly. What would be the other thing? I think, too, your point and back to this idea of really focusing and not getting caught up in when you bring on external stakeholders, when you bring on investors, when you bring on different passionate people about different things, it can lead you down certain directions where you maybe lose sight of why you're here in the first place. And even question, you start to question your own experience or your own sort of wisdom that you've gained. And I think for founders or people who are starting something for the first time, there can be a lot of running around and trying to get advice or what have you from different people. And I think obviously that's a very natural and important part of the process. But I think at some point you also have to stop. And when you've gotten some experience and clarity under your belt, just take a stop and acknowledge the wisdom that you've earned as well and not discredit that either. Because, you know, you are the person that's probably been as hands-on as possible and to trust that. Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:57:45] For anybody that wants to learn more about you or the company, where should they go? What can they read?

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Payton Nyquvest

[00:57:51] Numinous.com. We've got lots of resources, education. We post a lot of the clinical trial work that we're doing. We do trainings and obviously the clinic sites. And then. For me personally, social media seems to be the avenue that people squeeze into. So just first and last name on social media.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:58:12] Awesome. All right. Thanks so much, Payton.

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PAYTON NYQUVEST

[00:58:14] Thank you. Appreciate it.

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MO DHALIWAL

[00:58:16] Hopefully we've given you a lot to think about. That was High Agency. Like and subscribe, and we will see you next time.