Ride or die, cofounders for life

Mo Dhaliwal 00:24

Welcome to High Agency, igniting conversations with inspiring people, leading transformative change. We've heard the story a few times. Brilliant co-founders meet, they build a massive company together, then they watch it decline or totally implode. And it's not because the product failed or the market disappeared, but because they couldn't figure out how to work with each other or how to scale the culture that actually helped them succeed in the early days. And it's the startup world's worst secret.The majority of startup failures aren't caused by bad ideas or lack of funding. They're caused by leadership conflict. And this reality becomes even more striking when you consider that all the unicorn tech companies founded in Canada, only three have been built by women. And one of those rare founders discovered something revolutionary through multiple successful exits with the same business partner across decades. And it's that co-founder relationships don't need to be left to chance or imagined as lightning in a bottle, but they're actually a learnable science. So today we're joined by Tanis Jorge. She's a serial entrepreneur, author of The Cofounder's Handbook, and one of the voices reshaping how we think about building companies together. From scaling the global identity verification powerhouse, as co-founder of Trulioo, to teaching entrepreneurship to the next generation, she's proven that formal education isn't always the ticket to success, but understanding human partnership dynamics might just be that ticket. She's even coined memorable rules for the journey, including her famous first commandment, no business partners with benefits. And with over 20 years of experience building successful startups, Tanis has established herself as an authority on entrepreneurial partnerships.And today Tanis channels her expertise as author of The COfounder's Handbook, and as founder of The CoFounder's Hub, where she advises on building effective co-founder relationships. Welcome Tanis. 

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Tanis Jorge 02:28

Thank you, Mo. That's a great intro. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 02:30

It's a great life. I mean, you've had some very amazing experiences and obviously channeled them and now you're helping others.So I first learned about Trulioo years ago. We, as Skyrocket, my brand marketing agency, we pitched Trulioo for your business. We didn't get the gig, but that's OK, we're not offended by that at all, obviously, because you're here. But that was over a decade ago. Right. And since then, obviously, Trulioo's gone on to do amazing things. You've since exited and are doing other things in your life. But I want to talk a little bit about the early life of Tanis Jorge, and how and why you became a tech founder and where it all began. You were that little girl on the playground thinking about identity verification systems and you had a dream. So where did it all start? 

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Tanis Jorge 03:23

I love it. I love thinking about that little girl actually because I have to smile that little girl had so many dreams, and she had no idea how she was gonna achieve them.So I grew up my parents were, they were great. I had a fabulous childhood, my dad was when I was born by that time. He was in sales. He did Yellow Page sales advertising and my mom was a stay-at-home mom and it was really neat growing up because my dad's previous life he used to do door-to-door vacuum cleaner sales, so you can imagine... But he was you know, he was early on into like sales strategies and self-help and stuff. So I really grew up when I look back I grew up with a real air around, "You can achieve anything." My dad had a saying that said Tanis, "everything is just a numbers game." So you just keep going and you'll succeed and I guess that ultimately ended up creating in me this idea that really the world was my oyster. And so I never had any fear but, of like what my future was gonna be like so I could dream big but at the same time you know, my parents lived paycheck to paycheck for all intents and purposes and so, we didn't grow up with any kind of privilege or mega opportunity.I ended up being the first person in our family to graduate high school. But my family and my siblings were all entrepreneurs in some way, so I saw that modelled at me, and then in high school I started to see that a lot of the friends of mine whose families had money, I started to notice there was an entrepreneurship level to it, and so I was like, kind of wrapping my head around I don't think academics for me I was of mine a C minus student. So I think I really did start to recognize that my path my ticket is gonna be entrepreneurship. Although I never really was able to encompass it in that word. I just sort of knew I'm gonna be doing something for myself.

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Mo Dhaliwal 05:26

I mean, you know, I feel some parallels there because I was a C minus student as well in certain subjects and in other subjects I was like an A plus student and that was the dichotomy. It's like I was either going to get an A at something or struggle to pass and you're obviously able to do hard things.So what was it about school that wasn't clicking for you? 

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Tanis Jorge 05:49

You know, I saw it as a bit of a joke. So interestingly, fast forward a little bit. My co-founder and all my businesses, he and I went to high school together. And we both I mean, we were there to socialize. You know, we were there more to have fun and enjoy. But there was a point through school when I started to realize that there was this conformity requirement that you had to, you know, I remember in particular a project that we did and we went so outside the box and we came back and submitted it. And we ended up getting a C something. And it was all because I didn't answer the 10 questions that were required. And I was like, yeah, but we did a video presentation, like, you know, did a whole bunch of stuff. And I remember thinking, this is such this is ridiculous.We went over and above what was required. And yet wasn't what was required. But it was unique and the class was inspired and it was fun. And yet we did it. And so I remember just being really like, this is silly. And and I would always ask the question, when am I going to need this? So, you know, math, you know, when am I ever going to need to graph a parabola or whatever the word was? And I just I didn't see any point to it. And I think that mentality is actually what makes me do the things that I do. If I don't see the point of something, I usually won't do it. Or I'll figure out how to do it in a way that just gets it done. And so I think that's what school was to me. And I kind of saw through the facade that this was really dumb, that this was just busy work and it was just more of a place. So that's sort of where my mental brain was.And plus my family was never, you know, they were just happy I was going to get a high school diploma. So I was never asked, are you going to go to university or are you going to go to college? That was never a thing. So. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 07:43

Where did you go to school? Where did you grow up? 

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Tanis Jorge 07:45

I went to a group in WALL-E and I went to public school till grade seven and then I went to Holy Cross High School for high school. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 07:56

It's a very local story. And just because it's come up and it's a recurring theme of the co-founder relationship, who was your co-founder?And you mentioned that you guys went to high school together. So is this like a group project that just kind of never ended? 

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Tanis Jorge 08:13

You know, so Stephen, Stephen Ufford was two lockers down for me through all of high school because of our last name. So we were always kind of put together. My last, my maiden name was Wingenbach. And so we were always beside each other. And so over those five years, you know, we saw each other all the time, obviously first thing in the morning at your lockers. And then we just created this really incredible friendship. We were best friends all through high school, did everything together. And yeah, we just had this great connection.You know, we really complex again, I'm thinking back. But at the time we just we just really enjoyed each other's company. We we both believed the same thing about education, too. So we kind of we didn't take it seriously, but we also, you know, enjoyed enjoyed the journey. So yeah, so that was that was Stephen. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 09:08

And so then after high school, what was your first big foray together? 

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Tanis Jorge 09:14

Yeah. So after we graduated, um, I actually also met what, who became my husband as well in high school. High school is a very informative, productive time for me. I got a lot done.Um, uh, so I met my husband there as well. So, um, a couple of years after we graduated, I got married. Um, and, but after high school, as much as like Stephen and I were joined at the hip, um, after high school, we started to drift. And just as life gets in the way and you go about your life, we just didn't see each other as much. And then he approached me, um, a couple of years after graduation and said, listen, he had some opportunities that he was doing down in the States and he discovered that he couldn't get a cell phone. And part of the reason for that was because he, there was this thing called a credit report and he had a bad credit score. And so he looked into it and you could get a credit report online in America, but when he came back to Canada, it was still this super antiquated system. You had to fill in a form, mail it out. They mailed something back. It was really old school. So he started to look into it and realized that, yeah, this option was not available. That was in the States. So he took me out of Earl's in Langley one day and just said, listen, I think we can do this thing. Um, uh, this, we can take these credit reports online. And I remember asking what's a credit report. And, um, so when I said yes to him at that moment, it wasn't because I was excited about credit reports and the opportunity to do that. What I was really excited about was just to be back engaged with him again and for us to do something fun together and maybe, you know, get our friendship back, you know, on a more regular basis. So that was actually why I said yes. Um, and then at that point I query was born, which was we brought online credit reports to Canada. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 11:08

And what was it about Stephen's personality that made the idea of working together attractive? 

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Tanis Jorge 11:16

You know, we just, we, we worked well. We, we, when I see excellent co-founders, there's a fluidity between how they take things on, how they navigate decisions, you know, in decision-making, there's always someone who's conceding ultimately, or unless you're aligned, but someone brings up an idea and then the other person either accepts it or pushes back. And then there comes to a consensus. Um, but for him and I, you didn't even feel that decision. It was an exploratory discussion. And then we just figured out a way to do it together. And so there wasn't, it just, it was just a beautiful dance, I guess is the way that I can say it, that we were able to just, Oh, let's do this. Or, Oh yeah. And what if we tried that? No, I don't think that would work. What if we did this? And, but it was never his ideas or my ideas. We just, we could just form together. And so I think that's what, um, you know, that's what we do well.And plus we're very complimentary. Um, he has a set of skills that I do not have. And so I was able to lean on him for that and vice versa as well. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 12:29

What were those skills? 

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Tanis Jorge 12:31

So for me, I am very, I've learned about myself. I am a strategist. I am very able to see all the different pathways that we can go and sort of, I call it like a choose your own adventure. I'm able to like, what if we did this, this will happen, this will happen, and then if this happens, that will happen. But because of that, I'm always strategizing.Well, what if we add this and what if we do that? Whereas Stephen, he was always able to, once we picked a path, he could keep me on the path, which you need to be able to do when you're in business. You need to be able to take a path and choose and go with it. And so he's a brilliant, brilliant person at execution. He knows how to finish a job and get it done. But also able to, when you got to pivot or take a turn and do, he's able to very fluidly move in these little directions that are required, especially in an early stage startup. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 13:31

Have you heard of UOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System? No. So it's basically a business framework for companies that might be struggling with growth or are just looking for some best practices and systems on how to serve as good ideas, operationalize those, how to actually break down goals and put your company on a path for growth.And one pattern that they, I think, first researched and witnessed and then established really specifically was in the leadership of a company. And they describe these two roles under which sales and marketing and operations and finance and admin all sit. Well, those two roles are visionary and integrator. And it's the exact pattern that you just described. There's a big idea, strategic, visionary that has the mindset for that level of type of creativity. And then there's the integrator that works really well with that but is able to take that and operationalize it. And then later on when the visionary has 20 new ideas, within 48 hours, the integrator is able to say, well, actually, here's where the priorities are and how we're moving. So it's just fascinating hearing you actually define it so well without even having heard of that framework. Yeah, never heard of that. 

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Tanis Jorge 14:45

heard of that. And actually, you know, I will say about Stephen, I mean, all around, he's an incredible business person, he's able to really take all of those pieces.But I think what makes it even more unique is, you know, being able to be on a path and then moved, like, I know, you know, it's easy to move me hard to keep me focused, whereas, you know, he can be focused, but he is also movable. Again, which is I see that as a conflict sometimes with folks who are they're like, No, we finish this, and it's hard for them to move off it. So yeah, but yes, I see that as as two really important abilities. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 15:26

And so iQuery, did that morph into Trulioo later? 

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Tanis Jorge 15:30

And nobody played a role. So over the course of the first 10 years that we were partners together, we built and exited three tech companies. Each of them took about three years to build. And we stumbled into each of them, really, is the way it so happened. I always joke that at the end of every company that we built, we would kind of shake hands and be like, well, that was fun.And then eventually down the road all of a sudden, he'd be like, oh, I got a call. And you know, oh, well, let's explore that. And then the next thing you know, we're back into another business again. So we stumbled into an industry that was very incestuous, very niche. And we ended up being able to make ourselves what we called the Switzerland of identity. And so people would sort of come with us to us because we had no real ties to any particular player. And so we were very neutral. And so we were able to sort of play with different players within that industry. And no one felt like, oh, you know, we're taking them from something. And that was actually a key thing that I think really helped us to be able to build a network within that industry. And people or organizations were very open to working with us. So yeah, so that was at iQuery was three years. It was acquired by the company that he got the idea from in the States. And then our other two companies were also in the identity space as well. So truly, you sort of stemmed from that, but from our experience in understanding identity. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 17:02

I mean, that's a lot of subject matter expertise of, you know, working in that domain and having these sort of, you know, parallel companies. And then you mentioned that you kind of stumbled into every project.So how do you stumble into Trulioo? 

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Tanis Jorge 17:17

So after we built our first three companies, basically, we used to say, we gave our 20s to business. So we did that over our 20s. And then by then, I had decided I wanted to be a mom. I wanted to start a family.And so after the third company, I felt we really did shake hands and say, well, that was fun. And so I did start a family when my youngest was five months old, not even. Steve said, listen, I'm going to head to Silicon Valley, take an idea that we had, and explore it down there. We had never done Silicon Valley and never done that kind of thing. And so he's like, I'm going to go down and explore this. And we had some money. I remember we had some money left over from our previous sale. And we thought, well, we could take the money out and pay tax on it. Or we could leave it in the company and just try a new idea and see where it goes. And so I said, yeah, leave the money in. Let's do it. But I'm not going to necessarily be part of it because I'm starting a family. So off he went to the valley, went to Sunnyvale, worked at an incubator, worked on the project in an incubator down there. And slowly over time, he was able to get the idea up and going. And the next thing we know we're pitching. And raising money. And we're back in again. And we're back in again. So that's kind of how that started. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 18:50

But was it a hard sell that time? Because if you're starting a family. Yeah, it was. I wasn't. 

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Tanis Jorge 18:53

sure how I was going to be able to make it work. You know, again, with two small kids, I remember I was heading down to Sunnyvale to do, I would, he would do all the pitches. And then when we'd get a call back, I would fly down to San Francisco and be there for the second pitch to investors. And there was a couple of times I brought the nanny and my son with me because I was breastfeeding still. And I had to do that and then go to the pitch and then go. So yeah, I didn't know how we were going to make it work and what sort of sacrifices I didn't really, we didn't really know what it was going to, how it was going to change things.And I think we were a little naive going in about what that was going to look like. So yeah, it wasn't an easy ride. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 19:42

I mean I feel like you need to be a little naive because whenever knowledge is too complete it can be quite daunting and overwhelming. For sure. Can you imagine knowing everything? 

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Tanis Jorge 19:51

Well, and that was actually one thing we never did. We actually specifically, when we started a company, we looked at, we knew of the competition, but we never did a deep dive into comp. I know they often say, oh, you should find out who your competitors are and go through it, but we felt like that would change how our vision would go. So we actually stayed very light on exploring what other people were doing to solve a problem.We really focused on our expertise. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 20:17

Mm hmm. So why, you know, what is it that keeps you coming back? Because I think for some entrepreneurs, you know, a couple of exits and they're set and they're, you know, moving on and doing other things. Yeah.But the actual building of a company. I mean, that's a pretty specific activity. Right. So what is it about that that, you know, kept you coming back? 

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Tanis Jorge 20:39

I love it. I absolutely love starting companies. There's something about this, you know, I really I have I love an idea and I love the challenge of bringing it to reality. There's just something about the detective work that you like how are we going to launch it and the strategy behind it and oh we could do this and we could do that. There's something so invigorating to me about it. I just if I could just do nothing but start companies I would and so I think for us it's that that real exploration of how do we bring this to fruition.It's like a challenge and so I always say many times the quote of how, you know, go in and do what you love. I did not love identity. It was never anything that I was at all passionate about, you know, the subject matter, you know, even the players that organizations it's all very banking and fintech and it's all this sort of thing which is totally not my thing but I do have a passion for starting companies and solving a problem. So I often say to entrepreneurs like you don't if you have an ability in an industry even though you don't love it if you fall in love with solving it that's just as exciting as whatever your subject matters. If you can love your subject matter that's great too but doesn't need to be. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 22:01

I think there's some advantage there. So there's a couple of things. I mean, one, the idea of making something real, I really vibe with that a lot. It was actually the genesis of even our agency, Skyrocket. We loved working with startups in the early days because there was such an opportunity to go from a whiteboard and then make it physical and real. And now it's doing things in the world. So exciting.Yeah, and we were doing that as a factory. So it was just on a conveyor belt, one after the other, different industries, different companies. It was super fascinating. But what you said about not being in love with the subject matter, I'd argue there's even some advantage there. Some of our clients today, we talked to senior leadership, and some of them fell into that industry. So they're not really in love with the industry, but they love the leadership. They love the people. They love the building of the engine. And that amount of detachment actually gives them some better decision making because they're not getting into the weeds of being in love with the ingredients of the thing. They're maintaining a perspective and a picture. And as a result, are able to continue focusing on the solution. 

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Tanis Jorge 23:13

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's so many ways that an entrepreneur can explore something. And I just feel like that one piece, just the passion for taking an idea and moving forward.This is why actually I limit my advising of entrepreneurs because I find that once I advise somebody, I'll probably think about their business for like two weeks afterwards. And I am setting aside whatever I'm working on because that whole creative side and that whole journey creation is really exciting to me. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 23:45

Yeah, I have an unsolicited advice disease as well. I'll get like a random phone call and somebody will be like, hey, what about this? And then, yeah, days later, I'm like, what about this?Try this. You should do this. I was just putting more. 

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Tanis Jorge 23:57

I thought into it than the entourage. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 23:59

Totally. Yeah, you're in the shower and you're like, oh man, I gotta... 

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Tanis Jorge 24:02

Yeah. True. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 24:03

Um, so, you know, we're not talking about the next company, you're starting with Stephen yet. I'm not even sure if that's happening, but I'm sure it is at some point.Um, but at some point you recognize that there's a interesting pattern here that other people could potentially learn from. Um, so the co-founders hub came out of that. 

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Tanis Jorge 24:22

Yeah, I did. So once I recognized that there was going to be a point when I would step out of the day to day at Truly You, I had to really, because I did end up stepping out, I decided I wanted to be home with my kids and, you know, build into them. I always say, you know, I think, I don't know if it's a, I would go so far as to say, I think women have a more intent, are able to be more, find more satisfaction in raising kids. That's a broad thing. But I looked at raising my kids almost like little startups. Like it's quite comical the way I raise my kids. But I really was looking forward into building into them and, and, and helping them create their journey together. So I was really excited to do that.But when I recognized that I wasn't going to be in the day to day anymore, I knew I had to do something besides just working as, you know, being a mom. And so I thought, well, what am I excited about? And there was two things that I realized. I love travel and I love public speaking. So I said, okay, well, then what is my topic? And so there was, I came up with three topics I could talk about. Obviously I could talk about entrepreneurship, but everybody, there's lots of saturated, a lot of people talking about it. I could talk about being a woman in tech, which when I started truly, that was when this term women in tech started to come out. And to be honest, I didn't, I didn't identify with that very well. I had never thought of being a woman at all. It was never something that as a woman in tech, I just, I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable with that title. So I thought, well, I'll stay out of that venue there. But, but the other one that I would get a lot of entrepreneurs coming to me for asking was like, how have you built four companies with the same person? You're still friends. Like, how did you do that? And I realized, okay, that's something I could probably explore. And so I just dove into that. I dove into the topic. I spent a lot of time really trying to figure out what did Stephen and I do well together? What did we do not well together? Cause truly it was probably the more difficult company for both of us. Not really understanding life stage affecting how we were going to work together. It's not high school anymore. It's not high school anymore. And it's not like I had other priorities too. I couldn't just pick up and head to Australia, you know, at any point anymore. And, um, you know, so I knew, so there was, so we had our ups and downs. So I really explored that. And then I went out to friends and people that we knew in our network and I started to interview them and say, you know, how has your partnerships work or how did they fail and across industries as well, not just in tech, but you know, people in construction or people in accounting firms, like how have you worked with your business partner? And I started to get all this really incredible information. And then I thought, Oh, Hey, I think I need to write a book. Okay. I'll write a book. And so that's how the co-founders handbook came to be. 

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Tanis Jorge 27:16

It was a real, like from the trenches, from my experiences, but as well from those who have gone before and actually in co-founder partnerships. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 27:25

So, let's go back to Trulio for a split second. You know, what was the, because you mentioned it was a harder start-up, a harder business. There was, you know, life stages. So I'm imagining there's some of the obvious stuff that shows up, right? Because your priorities aren't going to be as absolute as they once were towards the business.Yeah. You know, what else were you challenged by during that time? 

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Tanis Jorge 27:47

Yeah, well, commitment. Realistically, if it came down to. I was raising two kids. When we started Truly, I had two kids under the age of two, technically. And I wanted to be the best of everything. I wanted to be an incredible mom, incredible wife. And I wanted to be an incredible COO of a rising tech company. And I really struggled with that.And I found it very difficult. I found just exhaustion as a piece of it, but also this dichotomy of your brain. During the day, I'm thinking about this. But when I get home, I can't think about work like I used to be able to do. Now I'm mom. Now I'm making dinner. I'm organizing the nannies. I'm blah, blah, blah. It was a dualness of my mind that I found really, really difficult. So I think what we didn't realize was now as a co-founder of a company, I was dropping balls that I would never have dropped before. Or I was not able to fully put that mind focus into it that I needed to. And it would cause some struggles. Even our roles, what was typical before, somewhat had to change a lot more when on Stephen's shoulders than we ever had to put on his shoulders before. So we had to work through that. That whole experience was tricky, and it put strain on our relationship through that. And we worked through it, but it wasn't easy. And there was a lot of concessions and a lot of having to try new things, which we never had to worry. We had almost like a cookie template from the previous companies. And we thought we could just fall into those roles again, and it did change it. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 29:42

being an absent parent and neglecting your children wasn't an option for you, I guess. No, not for me. 

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Tanis Jorge 29:49

I wanted to be awesome at it all, unfortunately. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 29:52

Well, I mean, the cool thing is, because I think for a lot of stories, it could have stopped there. It could have been that, well, you know, we were able to build companies at a point in time because there was more, you know, congruency and now things are different and we can't.But you were still able to navigate that, right? So additional challenges, but you were still able to figure it out. So what is it about, I guess, you and Stephen's relationship that you were now encountering new challenges, but still able to solve them? 

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Tanis Jorge 30:17

Well, I think we knew each other's, um, true dedication to work, you know? So I think deep down, we both knew that if I chose to, I was doing this as a choice, um, not that I was inherently a ball dropper or that I wasn't a committed person.And so it was just sort of figuring out how do we, how do we change how we relate to one another? How do we change how, um, how we communicate what roles, how, how will our roles change? Um, so that I can do things that are maybe require me less to be in the office on a daily basis. Um, so it really was just the conversations and as I, as I now help co-founders walkthrough, um, from that experience, I'm big on communicating expectation, don't leave it with this. I think they're going to take this on or, and I don't say, um, I'm always making sure that if you can't do something, explain to your co-founder why you can't do it and have those deep discussions, that transparency, that authenticity, be vulnerable and share it because then resentment won't sneak in, uh, trust can be maintained. All these really core foundational requirements will remain. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 31:35

Yeah. There's, um, is that saying that, uh, unspoken expectations are pre-planned resentments?Was there, was there something that surprised you during this process? Like, was there something that you learned about yourself that was actually showing up as a, as a surprise and something new? 

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Tanis Jorge 31:58

It was very hard to make the choice to prioritize family when the company was starting to show signs of success. And you never know in those moments when you'll choose money and success over what you actually prioritize. And so I think I was surprised at my ability to maintain both priorities as best as I could. And I think at the end of the day, that's what bothered me the most, was that I felt like I was kind of half ass in one and half ass in the other, which was driving me batty.So it came to the point where Steve and I finally had to sit down and we just said, look, I can't do this any longer. We have to get even somebody who can be fully committed. So the decision was made to find somebody to replace me. It took about a year. We ended up finding Zach, who ended up being an incredible still witcher leader today as the COO. And yeah, we were able to find somebody and go through that process. And it was great. We recognized that, yeah, this had to happen. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 33:18

Yeah, and it requires a lot of trust that you can have other priorities and that things will, if you communicate well, things will show up to fill the void and make sure that perhaps problems are getting solved in ways that you didn't previously imagine. One of my favorite stories to tell, it's not actually mine, it's somebody else's, but I feel like I have to share it. There's this gentleman named Jesse Charda, he's a PhD tech entrepreneur, lives out in New Jersey. He has this company called Axtria and they do sales analytics and work with a lot of pharmaceutical firms. And we're actually meeting at Collision in Toronto a couple of years ago and we were meeting over over coffee and I was kind of giving him some props for winning some awards. And they had had like quadruple digit growth for a number of years. And, you know, the company was like north of 50 million dollars is incredible, incredible startup story. And so I was just, you know, complimenting him as I'm like, what an amazing story. This is great.What you've done. And he kind of paused for a second and said, you know, he goes, I'm proud of what we've done, because I'm more proud of how we did it. I said, you know, what do you mean? And he said that from the moment they founded the company, and this is like a decade prior, longer, I think, he said that one of his non-negotiables was that he was going to be doing 10 weeks of vacation per year, no matter what. Right. And that had been communicated to investors. It was communicated to the board. But that was just a very, very clear thing. And he said in the company's lifespan of like a decade plus, he never broke that. And so he said there was one occasion where he broke it a little bit, but that meant that his kids and wife had to leave on a flight first and he had to stay back and sign some papers because they were about to onboard something huge. And it was just ridiculous. Right. So he had to leave a couple of days later. Right. And that was like the only compromise he had on that point. And he had so much trust in the people that he had recruited and in the company and in their strategy that he knew that he had the team that would fill the gaps that would make things happen. And he had a lot of trust in that. And yeah, to be a tech founder, to not only have the accolades, not only have an incredibly high performing company, but to have stuck to the 10 weeks of vacation time a year rule as an absolute was incredible to me. 

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Tanis Jorge 35:45

It's so important. So we're about to launch a product. I mean, there's a whole bunch of processes that I feel people need to go through to build strong co-founder partnerships, but ultimately, it begins with really truly understanding yourself as an entrepreneur. And one of the key pieces we have in this entrepreneur DNA program is really sitting down and identifying your need. And a need is something that might, you may have no needs. You may have one, two max, but these are the things that are non-negotiables. And we often don't necessarily think about that. And sometimes these non-negotiables are big ones, like a 10-week vacation. That's a big commitment that your co-founder would have to take on, or your company. But I think they're really really important.And I always say, everything is work-aroundable. I don't know if that's a word, but everything is work-aroundable. If you have a person who, but you need to identify what they are and talk about it and prepare it, and the person on the other end, receiving end, has to accept it. But everything is workable. And so having these needs and not, and then secondly, your wants. It isn't necessarily, your wants are also important. They're what's going to make your journey worthwhile. How do you, what do you need to do, whether it's a corner office or I want to be able to bring my dog in. You know, it isn't necessary, but it's what's going to make this journey of entrepreneurship palatable. And so there's these really key conversations that you need to have. And that is exactly one of them. But you really need to actually decide what they are and have a conversation and say, this is a non-negotiable. And then work through it. And there's ways to figure it out. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 37:33

Is that on the book? 

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Tanis Jorge 37:35

It is, yes it is. It's in the book and it's going to be in the program too. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 37:39

So, when you came through these experiences and you noticed this pattern around people coming to you with a question of how do we work together as co-founders, as better partners, what else did you witness that was showing up in your relationship with Stephen, but that you also saw in other productive co-founder relationships? 

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Tanis Jorge 38:00

Yeah, a lot of it had, so Stephen and I, for a vast majority of our partnership, we had a partnership desk, I think a partner's desk or whatever they're called. We sat across from each other. So we shared an office, the two of us, and we sat across from us. So the level of communications that we would have, we'd be constantly tight. It ended when we had to start taking calls and it, no one wanted to leave anymore. But, um, but there was a big piece of our, of our time together that we spent sitting across from each other and just natural conversations would flow from that. So we would just sometimes get no work done a day. Cause we'd just talk about strategy or ideas for like hours at a time.Um, so that was something, again, in hindsight going, Oh, that's how you navigated all the different paths that you could go as an entrepreneur through this communication. And then we would whiteboard as well, a lot. Um, we would take all the possible ways that the business could go. And we'd, we'd like to choose your own adventure. We'd play it all the way down to the end and then we'd, we'd update it and go, okay, well this ended up going this way. So we always had a really deep picture of where the company was going. And it was in those conversations that it was like clarity came into place and you could actually go out and make decisions even without your co-founder because you knew the path we were going. So to me, the number one thing that I work with co-founders on is actually having them truly identify their vision. We sort of have it, but as things are moving, it can change. So I'm constantly talking about setting time for communication, realigning your vision and goals, talking about anything that just pops in your brain. If one founder starts to go, you know, I think I might want to exit, talk to them about it, like, what does that look like? Is that five years from now? All these things, all these little questions, conversations need to be continually had. So I think that's what we end, we did well in hindsight without even knowing we were doing it. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 39:57

Yeah, I mean, there was this video floating around, I think on Instagram somewhere, it was one of these Geary V posts, and he was kind of talking about like the key people in your organization, right? Whether it's a star employee or like a partner.And the way he put it was that you can't have a key person in a company and not know what motivates them. Like, if you don't know what their vision is, like even as individuals and what drives them, he's like, you need to set up like a two and a half hour dinner like right away. All day long. 

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Tanis Jorge 40:26

Goals and aspirations is one of the main pieces that again we work with on the entrepreneurial DNA thing is not just your goals for your business but what are your personal goals.Sometimes we keep these things because it's like oh it's my personal life me and my wife or me and my spouse or where we have this going on plan you need to actually share that you know I always joke that Stephen was a Stephen found out I was pregnant before Dave did my husband because when I found out I was pregnant my husband was on a trip and that exact same day we were planning a business trip I think it was Australia or something like that and we had to book the flights and I had to let him know but by that time I'm gonna be pregnant but don't tell Dave yet because I haven't told him and but these are the like literally that is how intimate this co-founder partnership becomes you can't hold anything back so they need to understand even your personal goals whether it's I want to get a dog down the road or I want to have another kid like those are conversations you actually have to have with your co-founder because it affects your business and not because you have to change it but they just need they need to know they'd be need to be that involved it's such an incredible relationship

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Mo Dhaliwal 41:35

Yeah. And I think, you know, that sort of bifurcation, that dichotomy is born out of probably like a good intention. Like I've heard this phrase a million times and I used to struggle with it myself with the idea of work-life balance. And I always hated it.And people around me kind of got the impression that I hated it because I just wanted everybody to be working all the time, which, you know, might be true. I do have a problem with that as well. But it was actually because it was kind of creating this separation, right? This fallacy that there's a work persona and there's like a personal persona. But I think that's like the root of mental health issues because like our biology doesn't know that we're trying to be two different people, right? We are only one being. And so it was a previous job like a lifetime ago and a mentor of mine that said it's actually work-life integration of how do you build it all into an integrated plan, right? And have components of it. 

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Tanis Jorge 42:28

Who are the people that influence you behind the scenes? It's often the person you sleep with. But it's also, is it your parents? Are your parents feeding into your co-founder's story? Did they have their ear? That's another component that we walk people through, is really identifying who's behind the scenes that's tipping you in a certain way to make a decision.And these people are often not in your business. They're actually in your personal life. And so identifying who they are. And then including them, so they have an understanding of what's happening in the business. They're not going to understand everything. This is why I say the co-founder partnership is so incredible because that co-founder knows you in a way that even your spouse won't necessarily. They understand what it took to get that success. Your spouse will always be on your side. But... 

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Mo Dhaliwal 43:24

and bias there. Yeah. 

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Tanis Jorge 43:25

little bit of bias but so your co-founder truly understands that but you still need to bring these people of influence in because if they understand your business a little better they may not be telling you hey try and get more money you need a bigger salary well we you need to understand more about how the business is going and so I always say include these people in your life somehow they don't want to be involved like on a regular but take the time to explain to them how the business is going let them understand what's going on behind the scenes. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 43:57

So I'm having a bit of like an Oprah moment here because there was like an epiphany that just like hit me right now that I wasn't expecting actually just kind of hitting me like a bit of a ton of bricks. I'm kind of thinking back to even like this business with the agency and where like we had failures in partnership because it's something that I don't actually talk about or even think about that often myself because I was left with a business and there's some trauma around it so you kind of tend to push it out of your mind.But yeah, Skyrocket was started as you know, I was one of three partners, right? And like almost 14 years ago now, you know, first partner lasted a year and we were okay with it. It was like, I mean, he was an asshole and there wasn't much to discuss about there. But then years later, I had a falling out with the, you know, partner that I think was really the sort of like the design, the creative like foundation of this place. And it's hitting me now that it was entirely around unspoken expectations, right? You know, he had a family and he had some ideas around moving back to South Africa and kind of carrying on remotely and perhaps even kind of building a business arm over there. And I think both of us on some level, we're probably just carrying around like volumes of information, of expectation ideas and like how this is going to go forward. And I think we had maybe talked about it a little bit and then just assumed that, you know, we've been working together for like, you know, five, six years at that point, it's going to be fine. And he left to South Africa, moved and again, these are all plans that I had signed up for and everything. And I kid you not, within 60 days, we were done like it was just it was over, right? And it was it got ugly and it was bad. And at the time, I think I was quite sort of accusational when I want to look back on it. But now the more I think about it and actually hearing you talk about this, like, man, we didn't talk anywhere near. We should have. Right. Like these days, I mean, there isn't a client that I don't have the deepest conversations with when we're onboarding because we have to. If we're going to do this together, we got to connect. And I don't think we did that. 

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Tanis Jorge 46:10

Yeah, it's actually shocking how much you have to learn about yourself and then learn about your co-founder. I mean, as deep as how do you handle conflict? Why do you pull away when we're having trouble? Sometimes you just think, oh, well, you're just a jerk. You're giving me the silent treatment. Well, no, that's actually their conflict style.It's avoidance. You have to find that out. So you go, oh, you're avoiding. Let's pull that out. There's so much to know, but it's also about yourself. We often think we know ourselves, but we actually don't. When it comes to actually sit down and write and answer a question about yourself, you go, oh, gosh, I actually never really thought about that. And you start writing things out and you start talking about yourself and you go, wow, yeah, this is how, you know, how did your childhood shape your business journey? Yeah, you know, I, you know, I came from a family with little, so, you know, you never know what it is that moves you. And so then that will affect how you make business decisions and we don't realize how much all these unspoken things, all these influences we have in our life, all these past experiences, how much even in the tiny minutia, little details, how you handle culture, how you handle all this stuff stems from who you are. So if you don't know who you are, you're thinking you're making decisions, let alone if you don't truly know your co-founder, you don't know what's moving them. So this idea of really going deep, really going intensive, it lays such an incredible foundation that you can then work from because you have all the puzzle pieces in front of you to work out. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 47:53

Yeah, that's that's incredible. The co-founders that you're working with today are perhaps just founders and you're working with them through the co-founders hub.What sort of challenges are they dealing with? You know, what sort of phenomenon are you seeing? You got this famous quote around or the phrase that I had in the introduction that was it no co-founders or partners with benefits? 

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Tanis Jorge 48:19

with benefits, yeah. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 48:20

And is that I mean have you ever witnessed that people are dealing with I have witnessed many many things 

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Tanis Jorge 48:27

I mean, it's everything from founders hit with illness that they never anticipated, founders getting divorced, or just done, or recognition that that person's skill set no longer works in the role that they have. Oftentimes, as founders, it's our baby. It is an extension of who we are. And to be able to pull away, for some, that's a really difficult thing to do.So there's a lot of different struggles that co-founders have. My goal is always to get to people before there's any trouble. Dig your well before you're thirsty. So doing the work that is required so that when you come to a challenge or a new issue, you've already even talked it out, hopefully. When the idea comes, should my kids work in the business with us? Hopefully, you've talked about that before your child is of age that can work in the company. And so you can talk those things out. So it's really, really, if I can get to somebody before trouble happens, that's perfect. That's the best place. Unfortunately, oftentimes, I get the co-founders that come in and say, yeah, we've actually only been talking to each other through our office manager for the last three months. And it's such a private experience. As a founder who's struggling in their partnership, it's very isolating. You can't talk to your investors about it. You can't talk to your, you know, you can only talk a little bit to your at-home family. How much do they want to hear about this? And they're just going to say, you're right. You know, your team, you don't want to ever show that there's trouble behind the curtain. You want to stay confident. So it's actually very isolating for founders as they struggle. So I often get people who come to me at that stage, which is great, too, because there is an opportunity to reconcile if both parties or all parties are willing to do the work and come through it. But hopefully, I can get people before conflict starts. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 50:29

Some of that's human nature as well. 100%, yeah. It's why painkillers outsell vitamins. Absolutely. 100%. We have to wait for some of that pain to show up before we're motivated. 

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Tanis Jorge 50:38

founders say to me all the time, Oh, we're the best friends. We work great together.And again, I've, I've seen that so many times where it's like everything happens until something happens. Sometimes it's when a raise happens, they raise their next round. There's more pressure. All of a sudden I have to begin. We have to make this big decision. All of a sudden we're in conflict. You never know when that can happen. So as much as even if someone's like, Oh, my co-founder is the best, great. Then you're going to have no trouble laying, doing the work to like, really clarify where everybody stands and let's just make you stronger even more than so that as your business continues to grow and the challenges get bigger and more is at stake, you are totally guarded against any of the issues that can come up. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 51:27

What are you excited about right now? What are you doing? What are you seeing in the world? I'm excited. 

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Tanis Jorge 51:31

about AI. I've been vibe coding for the last three weeks, four weeks. I am so excited for the new world. I'm excited.And in the new world, I mean just opportunity being available to everybody. Stephen and I are non-technical. Neither of us have ever written code. And that was always a challenge for us. That was the number one thing, finding people who could take our idea and turn it into a reality coding. And so now to be able to take all these trillion ideas I have in my brain and actually be able to just do it myself, and it's just a game changer on 1,000 levels. And I get so excited talking to friends. I have a friend. She's an artist. She's a painter. And she has this idea for an app she wants to do. And I'm like, you can do it. Come over. I'm going to show you how you can literally do this yourself. Like you are in the game now. You can totally create. And I'm so excited about it. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 52:35

And what's the next evolution for Tanis Jorge, Co-Founder's Handbook, Co-Founder's Hub? What else are you building? What else are you creating? Is there something you can share? Is it all top secret?No. 

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Tanis Jorge 52:48

Well, for the co-founders hub, so what we're working on now, as I mentioned, is we have the Entrepreneur's DNA program. So it's a deep intensive where it helps you dive in to know exactly who you are as an entrepreneur. Truly be able to identify your strengths, your weaknesses, your perspectives, the influences you have, all of that so you can create a true picture. Then once you have that, you can share that with your co-founder so that they understand you a little better. And then we add the AI component, which goes through and truly integrates all your responses and actually now can help you find more insights and create an action plan basically on how do you communicate better. It really will explain how your co-founder receives information this way and you receive this information this way and so here's where you're going to not be aligned and so here's what you can do. So it's a really, really deep relational program that helps you to really better understand. I'm really excited about that because we have had so many aha moments with people saying I had no idea that my partner felt that way or saw things through the world in that way and now I understand why they make this decision on a regular basis. I can understand that better. And so that to me is really exciting just to be able to see that level of deep insights that we can now pull with the advent of AI, which is really, really cool.So that's exciting to me. I do. We started a school called Live, Learn, Launch Academy. It's just small. It's just right now we have just 10 students, but we're really creating curriculum as well. We've thrown out 80% of the BC curriculum and we focus just on entrepreneurship, financial literacy, life skills, critical thinking, and we've kind of made those the key foundations. And then this year we're adding a huge AI component as well. It's my estimation that education is dead the way it is now and that it's time to look at education from first principles, which is what are the actual skills you need to engage in the world today. And it isn't pre-cal. It isn't algebra. It isn't even, honestly, knowing how to write an essay, which is a really hard thing for a lot of people to wrap their heads around. Those days are now it's about how do you form an opinion? How do you communicate that opinion through prompts? How do you engage storytelling? How do you look at people in the eye and pull them into you? These are new skills now that have been dropped. And I think those people who can really, I think the next generation that can be taught that will be miles ahead. It isn't about a college degree anymore. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 55:44

I mean, I think in a lot of ways, it's, you know, what's old is new again, because you think about how philosophical thought and how, you know, existence and being was interrogated and understood, whether it was Eastern philosophy 4000 years ago, or Western philosophy up to, you know, 2000 years ago and beyond. Most of the time was spent being human, right, and dealing with human relationships and how humans relate to each other.And in between various revolutions and industrial revolution, which I think we're, you know, just still in the halo effect of and will be for some time, kind of went into this period of now treating humans as cogs in this machine. And hopefully we'll figure out a way to break out of that. But I mean, that's the opportunity I see with AI in the future. And some of what you're talking about is if as people and humans, if we spend most of our time, learning how to think being creative, learning how to communicate and relate to each other, you get to spend a lot more time being human rather than being a cog in this in this machine. 

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Tanis Jorge 56:44

100% and really knowing, yeah, knowing who you are and knowing what you can contribute, but it is back to the skill set of being a person. It's important again, very much. How do you communicate? How do you build relationships? How do you network? How do you have a conversation with somebody one on one? Those things are going to be really, really important today.So yeah, lots of exciting. I'm excited for it. I do see the challenges ahead, but I also think that for those who choose to embrace it today, it's the Wild West. It is the beginning of the start of something. And right now we have so much opportunity, but we have to grab hold of it. And I think we have to be intentional, especially with the next generation, to make sure that they are learning in today's world, which is absolutely completely different than even what it was when I was in school. It's a totally different world. We cannot teach them the same things that we used to teach. It needs to be completely turned on its head. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 57:57

I'll completely agree. I mean, I think people in systems today are overwhelmed by their perceived rate of change.But without understanding that this like we're not even 1% into the journey of how much this is going to absolutely and it's going

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Tanis Jorge 58:10

to come up really really fast so yeah so I'm excited about so that's something that's a topic I could I could spend 

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Mo Dhaliwal 58:17

We'll do a part two. Yeah. 

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Tanis Jorge 58:19

All day long, how do we change the education system and how do we really equip children for the new world? 

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Mo Dhaliwal 58:27

So Tanis, you continue to do lots of stuff if people want to learn about you and follow you and figure out what you got going on, where should they go? 

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Tanis Jorge 58:35

Yeah, so LinkedIn is where I'm most active, so on social. And then for booking for speaking and stuff like that, I have my website, tanisjorge.com. And then the co-founders hub, we will be launching our first line of products and services for co-founders, I'm hoping, in the next eight to 12 weeks, I would say. And yeah, so those will be the three, co-foundershub.com. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 59:03

Amazing. All right. Thanks for coming in, Tanis. 

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Tanis Jorge 59:05

It's fun. 

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Mo Dhaliwal 59:07

Well, hopefully we've given you a lot to think about. That was High Agency. Like and subscribe, and we will see you next time.